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Regarding PvE items use in PvP (Only arenas)

Regarding PvE items use in PvP  

78 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you want to be done regarding PvE items?

    • Yes, I want the items below to be banned from PvP
      47
    • No, I want not item bans in PvP
      30
    • I have no opinion on this matter
      4


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I think we should try to see this from eachothers point of view aswell.

I will toss my normal mode Shadow gear when I get the Heroic versions, this is logical as they will be useless.

I sit around in DS HC gear with legendary staff and wants to cap Conquest in arena, however with a ban, I can't. I will need to replace every single item in order to be able to queue and as I do not have any PvP gear, I'd have to do Battlegrounds 24/7 to get honor gear, or waste my ID to get some quick 397 gear from normal mode.

You're basically telling casual PvE players to fuck off, just because PvE items become unfair at 2200+. Just think about how utterly ridiculous that is.

I just can't see how this is any fair. All you PvP players running around with Gurthalak, how about you go farm valor in RHC's until you got full PvE set so you can enter a raid? Sure, PvP in PvE is the exact opposite from PvE in PvP, but you get the idea. Straight up 'banning' one part of the playerbase from playing the other part is just.. no.

I think Aloise's proposal is by far the best. Weapons and trinkets are by far the biggest part of your damage, and probably the reason why you find it unfair. I wouldn't mind having to replace three items, but having to replace an entire set to even be able to enter the arena is again, unbelievable.

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10 minutes ago, Axelito said:

I think we should try to see this from eachothers point of view aswell.

I will toss my normal mode Shadow gear when I get the Heroic versions, this is logical as they will be useless.

I sit around in DS HC gear with legendary staff and wants to cap Conquest in arena, however with a ban, I can't. I will need to replace every single item in order to be able to queue and as I do not have any PvP gear, I'd have to do Battlegrounds 24/7 to get honor gear, or waste my ID to get some quick 397 gear from normal mode.

You're basically telling casual PvE players to fuck off, just because PvE items become unfair at 2200+. Just think about how utterly ridiculous that is.

I just can't see how this is any fair. All you PvP players running around with Gurthalak, how about you go farm valor in RHC's until you got full PvE set so you can enter a raid? Sure, PvP in PvE is the exact opposite from PvE in PvP, but you get the idea. Straight up 'banning' one part of the playerbase from playing the other part is just.. no.

I think Aloise's proposal is by far the best. Weapons and trinkets are by far the biggest part of your damage, and probably the reason why you find it unfair. I wouldn't mind having to replace three items, but having to replace an entire set to even be able to enter the arena is again, unbelievable.

I do understand your point, but lets take a look at it from the other side. Lets compare Arena with Dragonsoul heroic - yes I know this is abstract but let me explain first.

 

If you wanna enter DS  Heroic you need to enter random dungeons > random heroics > firelands > drangonsoul > dragonsoul heroic. You can't just go straight forward to DS Heroic with your fresh 85 quest gear. 

In my opinion the same goes for arena, you have various options to obtain PvP gear, you can craft it, you can do heroic dungeons or raids and trade JP > HP or VP > CP, you could queue bgs and get your CQ and HP cap at the same time. In all those options you can keep your Heroic gear. But Arena is the competitve version of PvP and  the heroic gear destroys the competition of it because the game gets based around RNG. 

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14 hours ago, Emtec said:
  • DS N - Bone-link, Vial of Shadows, Cunning, Windward Heart, Soulshifter Vortex

What about Insignia of the Corrupted Mind? We should include this one too.

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We already discussed about that list and passed by voting

Insignia of the Corrupted Mind on normal version is fine, same like other DS normal trinkets left out there because some classes would be totally killed without it.

In my personal opinion even Soulshifter Vortex is fine but some ppl decided to add it on list aswell, it pased by vote so there it is.

Also this scenario by Aloise and Axelito (i really understand your guys point of view) but i think Medalxz explained it really well. Is just if we want to start doing PvE you guys won't invite us with full PvP gear right for heroic Dragon Soul 🙂 xD, lets be honest, so you need to work a little on your gear aswell, it should be the  same for you PvE players in PvP.... You can still do Battlegrounds and Rated Battlegrounds with full heroic gear if you want and legendaryes.

And also Axelito if you are just a casual PvP player that just cap his 1350 conquest point every week then you don't have to replace all your gear as you say, you can start buying PvP gear already. Also you can keep your normal DS pve gear wich is BIS atm and you can queue with few parts of that in the future if you don't have full set already.

But if i have to follow your scenario 100% and lets say in the future there will be PvE ppl with full Heroic DS gear and legendaryes and out of a sudden they whana do PvP they can still queue BGs and Rated Bgs and if they never played arenas before. they don't have any conquest points and they decided to start arenas and they can't queue because they don't have any PvP gear, well in this situation they will have to work on the gear abit (same how we would work on it if we whana start doing DS HC). But this is easy to be honest and it might not be any problem:

-You can buy full blue vicious gear with resillience and start queueing for arenas.

-You can trade Justice Points into honor / Valor points into Conquest Points / You can get Conquest Points via Battlegrounds aswell and honor points and you can buy your gear.

Lets be honest, like this we will "force" ppl to queue more RHC's and Battlegrounds and we will have more activity on the server.

You have to understand us aswell. Some of us played multiple Cataclysm servers and every Cata server died with the release of DS HC just because all this random 1 shots.

Let me explain you a litle better:

---> You as casual PvP player whana join arena to cap your points or for fun right ? And there is a tryhard team playing rogue - hunter with all the heroic pve procking items and they randomly 1 shot you in 3 seconds. You as casual PvP player will stop queueing for arenas becasue you get borred of geting 1 shotted, at some point you will get borred of farming DS as PvE player and you will quit the server. Everyone will do the same and the server will die, same like the other servers did.

And we don't want this to happen to Atlantiss and we try to make the arenas balanced for everyone.

I hope everyone understood !

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In general I'm full supporting to removing PVE items in PVP.
Nobody can suspect me cause I'm major PVE player it's only benefical to me cause I can get those Items easier than PVP player.

But from my experience followed from Warsong(Molten) to Freakz, Monster , AT, Atlantiss etc,
we all agree-ing on that the most impacting PVE items come with DS patch. That why I like T11 in Cata expansion. I didn't liked DTR aswell during T12.

I also remember in MoP the Legenedary gems killed some MoP server till they decided to remove them.


But before I vote and my voice will taking part in the calculations I need more clarifications.
In the opening message it clearly stated that the only Items will be removed are the Weapons & Trinkets.

But I'm asking about the Tier 2 bonus what about them? For some classes the Impact of T2 bonus are  distorting the PVP aswell.
Like in previous tiers people did not used T2 because many of the T2 were trash.

Also for those classes the sacrifice of resilience is worthable because of the gain.

 

So here we are - what should we remove and what PVE items we will remain.

I will support FULL disable of all PVE include Normal versions from DS normal and include Weapons and Trinkets like Insignia of the Corrupted Mind,

no Expectation.

 

Edit:

I also want to add that I'll support that if the PVE items will be disabled also from EVERY PVP aspect

like BGs, RBGs included but not from  "open world pvp" (Like Tol Barad, Going Orgrimmar as Alliance & vice versa)

OR atleast if possible to make an option to choose for RBGs between 2 options

RatedBG with PVE items / RatedBG without PVE items if that even possible to make feature like that.

 

So please make a clarification & write a full list of what items you want to disable and what items you want to remain.

Than I'll make my vote.

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Only the items from the list will be banned. Not all the pve gear, everything else that is not in the list will remain.

Please read the list very carrefully, i think should be clear for everyone because the list is very detailed.

The items that would be banned goes as follows:

  • DS HC - All, without exceptions
  • DS N - Bone-link, Vial of Shadows, Cunning, Windward Heart, Soulshifter Vortex
  • DS N - Gurthalak, Kiril, Titahk, Maw, Rathrak, Nokaled, Vishanka, Souldrinker
  • FL HC/N - Matrix, VPLC
  • OTHERS - Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa's Rest, Fangs of the Father 

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11 minutes ago, Dapper said:

@Playson I red(read) it still want official Emtec respond.

What exactly are you talking about? We had a long discussion about this in a "PvP royality" discord where the "best" PvP-Player of this server got invited. In total of 17 player (containing 4 Infected Player, around 5 Immortal Legion player, 2 GM's, horde player etc..) and **all 17 people (100%)** agreed on this list. 

We expected this change to go live like this, since that was the intention of the pvp royality to make important changes, which affect **only** pvp and improve the pvp experience. Emtec looked at it and decided it is too big of a change and he wants a public voting about this special subject, to see if the majority of the altantiss community would agree with this. 

 

Right now roughly 70% of the players agree. How many instances do you think a voting is supposed to pass to ever happen? 

Quote

so atlantuss isnt blizzlike anymore and we can do crossfaction bgs? 😄

afaik are crossfaction bgs nearly done scripting and got already tested 2-3 times by Infected, so it should be just a matter of time.

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4 hours ago, twitch.tv/medalxz sellouts said:

What exactly are you talking about? We had a long discussion about this in a "PvP royality" discord where the "best" PvP-Player of this server got invited. In total of 17 player (containing 4 Infected Player, around 5 Immortal Legion player, 2 GM's, horde player etc..) and **all 17 people (100%)** agreed on this list. 

We expected this change to go live like this, since that was the intention of the pvp royality to make important changes, which affect **only** pvp and improve the pvp experience. Emtec looked at it and decided it is too big of a change and he wants a public voting about this special subject, to see if the majority of the altantiss community would agree with this. 

 

 

Why would I care about 17 people talking in Discord when It posted on the FORUM where everyone can vote?

It's not like the PVP community has 17 people total you know...

 

I clearly said I will support it only if it will be full disable with no expectations.

Do I need to explain myself why I think and want it that way?

 

Ok -

during T11 and T12 some classes like Ret, Hunter, Rogue hadn't 2p which gave them overpower boost.

During T11 and T12 Ret couldn't get Holy Power from Judgement that how the game was designed
That how the game is even now if Ret don't use 2p bonus.

Why I need to agree that 2p PVE sets won't be also disabled?

Or Hunter double Energy? They hadn't it during T11/12 so why to agree to it now?

Or Trick & Trades for Rogue?

 

If only procable/rng items ? no ty i'm not supporting it.


I remember when I started to play I didn't even wanted to do PVE

when I recieved my Cata gear I understand the different between Cata gear with PVE items and without.

That the reason I started to do PVE to get those Items. same as what @Playson told to @Aloise

PVP players dont want to do PVE but they forced to it to get those Items.

Than you need to start gearing PVE set cause nobody will accept PVP geared player to raid. And understand PVE Tactics even when you dont want to.

I expected PVP player like you will understand and agree with me tbh.

 

Anyway I still did not voted for anything till Emtec clarification.

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@Dapper we are not looking to ban all the pve gear, that was another discussion that we had.

All we want to do is to balance the arenas that's why we banned the legendaryes (wich is the moust important) all the heroic gear on that list. And on normal versions only the game breaking procking items (heal and dmg) moustly so we avoid ppl geting 1 shotted wich have the moust impact in the arenas.

Ppl who voted and agreed on the list are the best PvP players on this server and be sure they know some classes have more benefict from 2 pieces pve bonus then others. Like you sayd ret pala can get holy power with judgement etc, We already calculated it and we decided that is still fine if some ppl whana go for some pve boost as long as is not game breaking, like you sayd: ret can go with 2 pve gear from set for bonus or some other classes like rogues can go for pve daggers or for example casters for some DS trinket like haste proc or the stacking intellect, healers can go for the stacking spirit or haste proc aswell, melles can go for the stacking agility / strength or for also  haste / critical proc others can run with some off set normal pve gear like fingers / waist / boots etc. or for weapons aswell, i mean is all up to you.

Again, everyone can still go for some pve boost in arenas  if they still want it and drop some resillience, everything is fine as long as is not that procking game breaking items from the list above !

With this changes ve believe 100% that the moust skilled players in arenas won't get random losses any more  from non skilled players just because of the damage procking items (example: you can be the best disc priest / resto shammy on the server ---> you face ret pala / unholy dk called vanguards comp and they rush on you with Gurthalak, Bone Link etc etc and they 1 shot you), stating that it doesn't matter how good you are, is pointless how skilled you are if they can just pop everything and kill you in a short period of time

Same can happen in 3s, ppl blaming that some teams just do raw dmg without using not even 1 single cc and still wining just because of the dmg and nothing else.

Also can happen for casual PvP players as i sayd before, they just queue arenas for fun or to cap the conquest points and get pro teams in queue that just 1 shot them in few seconds arena. Some ppl already left the server and not playing arenas anymore because of this.

We whana avoid all this and make the arenas balanced again, especially with DS HC gear coming out soon will be even worst.

And repeating again for everyone to be clear: we don't want to ban all the pve gear, just the specific gear from the list that is already made and voted especially the procking items wich we consider game breaking in order to make the arenas balanced for everyone and fun and fair and that's it 🙂 !

 

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@Playson Playson I know what is Vanguards is you don't need to use elitsm.

And I said that I don't care who are those 17 People in the Discord.

 

You know what I went the toughest and the most extreme "view"(maybe not the right word to use) of how I expect PVP.

I might be wrong. so I'll soft myself abit cause after all I want balanced PVP too.

 

Here is my soften version - I won't have problem with PVE daggers / PVE 2H / Neck / Rings / Wrist / Belt

Like back than in T11 I spent time to farm Ashkandi and in T12 Sulfuras to use them in PVP.

Those items are not retard as Gurthalak of T13 for sure and remind me the correct PVE 2H from DS.

 

Yet, They forced me to enter PVE in order to gain them.

if people want to sacrifice Resilience in order to get more stats or AP im fine with that.

 

But atm I still do not agree for 2P tier bonuses which are huge impact specialy for 3 classes.

Rogue want use Legs as off-part cause 1 more gem + stats or even more Parts like Rings, Wrist, Belt, Neck i'm fine with that.

But If you wear Legs for example you won't able to wear Shoulders/Head/Hands/Chest PVE To not able to recieve 2P bonus.


About the Trinkets I still need more think about it cause they remind me T11 Trinkets like Heart of Ignacious.

except the bonus stats are extremely more high.

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@Dapper you still give me the impresion that you didn't read the list carefully, here you go again:

- DS N - Bone-link, Vial of Shadows, Cunning, Windward Heart, Soulshifter Vortex

Vortex is banned, i don't know why do you keep mention it.

Also you keep saying that you don't care about 17 ppl talking on discord but because of this 17 ppl this topic went live on forum and also this 17 ppl have probably 10x or 100x more experience and knowledge then others and i just tryed to explain you that everything that is game breaking is mentioned in the list already, everything else left out there ppl already discussed about it, the list went already thru many votes and that is the final form of it that made it live.

Banning all the PvE gear is totally another topic or maybe something to take in consideration in the future if this will go well but for now i guess we will stick with this and try this one out.

If you ask me personally i don't have nothing against banning all pve items but as i sayd this is totally another story and is not about me or you and this propose and list was made for the good of everyone.

Probably not many ppl would agree to take them the right to not be able to use ANY PvE gear in arenas, this would be too big step out of a sudden, We can definetly try with this for now and if everything is going well we could maybe propose and try it out with banning all pve gear in the future.

As i sayd everything was discussed before and you can be sure with that list being banned everything will be fair and not randomly 1 shotted anymore or in the worst case will still be better then the current situation 🙂 but banning all pve gear is too big step out of a sudden.

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3 hours ago, Playson said:

Insignia of the Corrupted Mind on normal version is fine, same like other DS normal trinkets left out there because some classes would be totally killed without it.

That gives super adventage for casters like spriests and affliction warlock and more. It's not fair at all for melees in that scenario.

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Melles have theyr own version of haste proc aswell in Starcatcher Compass wich gives the same amount of haste as Insignia

Or melles like platers also have the option of the crit version in Creche of the Final Dragon wich gives the same amount of crit like Insignia of the Corupted Mind gives haste.

Please again guys, my request is to read that list carefully.

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But haste is not a good stat for most melees and its almost useless I would say. Haste for casters is

Insignia for spirest/affli/ maybe fire mage is equal to matrix hc version for feral/enhancement and matrix is banned. All i want is to be as fair as possible. Excluding insignia is not fair at all imo. #nohate

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Its fair for everyone. Every other class have trinkets left out there on normal version from wich you can chose.  Moust ferals play with Medalion and Badge doe. Also as feral for example if you want PvE boost you can go with the pve staff (Spire of Coagulated Globules) and will increas your dps.

If haste is not good for your class then don't use it 🙂

And as i sayd there are alternative haste and crit procs for melles aswell.

Matrix was banned moustly because its a 30 seconds proc and we all know how rogues love to abuse stacking haste rating on Atlantiss.

 

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@Playson Probably missed it. The way you typing or the way I read it. it sound like we are the "common" people never experience with "DS hc" expansion and we don't know how retarded are the PVE items in PVP. Hey dude we know.

 

I said I don't have problems with other Items such as Rings, Belts etc because like back than in T12 there  Players who decided to use 391 Exalted rings (it was an example of rings usage, I can give also example of other Parts)

 

About the procable items I have no disagreement, My major problem are with 2p bonuses.

 

About the trinkets listed

Creche +517 str - 3278 crit (plate melee)

Insginia +517 int - 3278 haste (casters)

Starcatcher +517 agility - 3278 haste (melee leather/mail)

Vortex +775 stamina - 3278 mastery (mostly used for Frost mages) - Which people suggested to ban it.

 

I have divided opinion to be honest I'm not sure If I want them or not. They are less retard than Vial or BfL, Cunning etc.

But -

First those stats are more beneficail with specific classes / specs as @Novikz said.

Second those trinkets in my opinion. will make the PVP scene to be more relayed on those Trinkets to proc.

(Yes yes if you skilled, experienced player you will anyway land a kill w.o those items procced probably.)

Third those trinkets give extremely high stats I can't imagine anyone will not use them.

Forth those trinkets will make Alliance side specially Humans to be superior. Cause you can run Badge+PVE trinket.

While let's say as Horde you will able to only use Badge+Medalion.

 

So we didn't achieved balance in that. 

That why my first impression was "lets ban all pve items"

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3 minutes ago, Playson said:

Matix was banned moustly because its a 30 seconds proc and we all know how rogues love to abuse stacking haste rating on Atlantiss.

True that, but still.

  1. Balance Druid
  2. Shadow Priest
  3. Fire Mage
  4. Affliction Warlock

They have soo huuge benefit from insignia, its insane. As mainly enhancement shaman, I'm asking what choose do I have? Theres no good equivalent pick for me in pvp.

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1 minute ago, Novikz said:

True that, but still.

  1. Balance Druid
  2. Shadow Priest
  3. Fire Mage
  4. Affliction Warlock

They have soo huuge benefit from insignia, its insane. As mainly enhancement shaman, I'm asking what choose do I have? Theres no good equivalent pick for me in pvp.

 

Badge+Medalion same as every none Human race.  but yep Insginia for Dotters hmm..

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@Novikz you use Medalion + Badge as enhancement.

----->" First those stats are more beneficail with specific classes / specs as @Novikz said. "

As i sayd each class has theyr alternative in haste proc doesn't matter melle or caster

Melles even have the crit proc alternative or you can go with the stacking agility / strength trinkets, casters or healers can go with the stacking trinkets aswell.

Some other classes don't use pve trinkets but they might chose a good weapon or they have good 2 set pve bonus or you can run with some extra off set parts. Its up to everyone individually really, everyone can have his own pve boost if they really want it or just play full pvp with high resillience.

@Dapper as you sayd:

----->" I have divided opinion to be honest I'm not sure If I want them or not. They are less retard than Vial or BfL, Cunning etc. "

Exactly that was our point and we basically wanted to remove moustly the retarded procking items,

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