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Pykeno

Whats up with shadow priests?

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U are right, the 47k wont be achievable.

But when u browse other classes top DPS they don't differ much. Still they are some what on equal playing field.

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That 'could' not be true, that IS true. That report is from 20-8-2012, emptie got the rag hc 1st kill on september 14th, 2011 (US -thaurissan, http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/thaurissan/Emptie/achievement#168:15068;IF the emptie rated there is not the one from the armory, then the report is from a private server - i don't know if those can be rated or not - and it's totally worthless). The report was posted after almost 1 year of gearing up.

DPS similarities? It's like comparing an axeman to a charioteer, but giving them both machine guns. 

Also, some guilds want to get their people ranked. You can see the priest in question got tricks of the trade, dark intent and some other stuff i might be missing. It could be coincidence (DI is good a spriest regardless), but it could also mean the guild tried to get that guy ranked and revolved the raid around it. The same is true for all other specs/ranks. Meanwhile, many guilds here are still struggling for a kill, let alone dps bragging rights. At most, what you can extrapolate from those rankings, is that , given the interest of the guild to rank some of their people in outdated and outgeared content, spriests are on par with other classes when everyone is working towards it. Which is not that thrilling IMO. 

 

TL;DR spriest may or may not be a great class/spec, i'm not the judge. But worldoflogs is not an accurate tool to evaluate that. I would much rather do a numbercrunch on simcraft using various levels of gear and stuff like that.

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But 112 are in the 40k range, All of them aren't post DS.

But doesnt SimCraft show a sort of tank'n'spank fight w/o mevement? Just with the option of all buffs

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Most, if not all (can easily be checked) people ranked on worldoflogs in firelands are DS geared.

And yes, simcraft cannot give a 100% accurate result. But comparing different specs output based on worldoflogs for fl hc is like trying to compare classes in 5man bosses, but with t11 gear: you can, but the results wont reflect anything other than the high burst capabilities of classes.

 

u can find some relevant info here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/3341757398

 

For each class and spec, blizz has in mind a design philosophy, which can stretch over multiple patches or even expansions. Some specs from cata only matured during MOP. Some were scratched completely.

Getting a glimpse of that design philosophy before talking about numbers (comparing a custom-buffed raid to a ranking list of ppl who outgear a nerfed content. seriously?) might be more beneficial.

 

P.S.: the easiest way to check if a caster dps is DS geared is to look for the 'combat mind' buff, the buff triggered by the trinket from DS http://www.wowhead.com/item=77198. The 120th guy on the list had it. I didn't check all of them, obviously.

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On 26.2.2017 at 6:51 PM, boniboniboni said:

Rag hc hasn't been downed by more people not because people are incompetent, but because many guilds which could very realistically start fl HC in general and rag HC in particular are either a) not willing to commit to min-maxing every aspect of a fight; or b ) have 1,2 or 3 good members of the 'core' who are very nice guys but whose performance for hc is subpar.

 

It's not easy to tell a guy who has been raiding with you for months and with whom you had a lot of fun that he's now benched.
As far as I can tell, the situation is not that different to what happened during SWP progression on retail, when guilds couldn't wait to get some gear to tell those pesky resto shamans and warlocks to fuck off so they can bring their friends back in the raid.

Lol...
Min-max is required when people are in PROGRESS not when people are GRINDING bosses.

when people are undergeared or group is in progress and they need to "squeez" every ability to do it before Timers/Mechanics.
Only in that conditions you will not take inferior-spec obviously.
 

When we begun FL hc progress our first kill on Baleroc we barely made it on Enrage timer.
But yesterday we killed Baleroc with Mage stucked in ICC gear and other one Disconnected around 35% hp.
The boss became a joke to us, while still its damn hard to other groups that are in the PROGRESS.

Every group in PROGRESS will take better superior classes and specs that work better together as Jamish said: "(to) clear content quickly, and efficiently". 

Specially guilds like WSI who want to claim to be FIRST to clear.

We are SIX months since FL hc been released. Many groups are at 6/7 hc (And many are not) but yet cannot kill Ragnaros.

But we all know WHY only 1-3 guilds killing Rag weekly.

 

Look, we talk about a 387 Shadow Priest with Legendary staff doing average damage of 33k per second. (As he claimed)

What the heck people talking about? Is Shadow Priest is best choice to pick? definitely not.

Will you prefer any RDPS with same Ilevel and Legend staff on Shadow Priest? definitely yes.

BUT!! is Shadow 387 ilvl with Legendary staff should be ok for Ragnaros hc? the answer is big YES!

When people finish their Progression and start nuke (grinding) bosses for Items. You can even carry people lowest than this Priest.

So please...


The problem on Atlantiss is different.  

I'll  try to "translating"  PVE situation at this moment to PVP terms.
Imagine Atlantiss will decide to rise up the reward for Elite pvp items from 2200 rate to 2700, It will be a big turmoil people wont agree with that Right?

Or maybe only those few people that could able to reach that rate to get the Elite items will agree to that.

But all those players around 2200~ who deserve to get Elite gear wont get it because now they need reach new Level of 2700+ rate.

 

But that exactly what Atlantiss just did to  the PVE.
If we could rate PVE players by their skills, understanding, knowledge & performering than WSI & Madness core-runs are "R1" (above 2700+ rate)
The "pvp elite gear items" reward in this case are Ragnaros HC items when he die.
And only them can get those rewards because they are 2700+. meanwhile other groups with lets say around "2200-" rate who deserve those items cannot get it, just because that new 'Level' setted.

If you expect that every group will match WSI / Madness skills its like expecting that every Mage will be Quodan.

 

#gaussiandistribution #normaldistribution

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Would you rather play arenas to 2700 with 1, 2 or 4 assholes that are great PVPers or stick around 2000 with your buddies?  

'Lol...
Min-max is required when people are in PROGRESS not when people are GRINDING bosses.'

How is that different to 

' Rag hc hasn't been downed by more people not because people are incompetent, but because many guilds which could very realistically start fl HC in general and rag HC in particular are either a) not willing to commit to min-maxing every aspect of a fight... '

In other words, min-maxing is required for people (guilds) who are in PROGRESS (or just thinking about starting it) - (not grinding is implied unless...u grind while in progress?)

Min-max is required when people are in PROGRESS not when people are GRINDING bosses

 

The first statement is mine. The second is yours.  

Exactly what i said. Literally, just with a lol for extra....lols i guess?

 

'when we begun FL hc progress our first kill on Baleroc we barely made it on Enrage timer.
But yesterday we killed Baleroc with Mage stucked in ICC gear and other one Disconnected around 35% hp.
The boss became a joke to us, while still its damn hard to other groups that are in the PROGRESS. '

 

We, our, we, we, us -5 times. other groups - 1 time. Believe it or not, hose 'other groups' are the majority. No high ground of any kind needed. 

I guess the conclusion to take away from most stuff here is: shadow priests are fine in the right context. Just like any other class and spec.

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3 hours ago, boniboniboni said:

Would you rather play arenas to 2700 with 1, 2 or 4 assholes that are great PVPers or stick around 2000 with your buddies?  

 

Quote
On 26.2.2017 at 6:51 PM, boniboniboni said:

 have 1,2 or 3 good members of the 'core' who are very nice guys but whose performance for hc is subpar.  It's not easy to tell a guy who has been raiding with you for months and with whom you had a lot of fun that he's now benched. 

 

 

I'll be honest with you, I did not understand your latest Post. It arranged messy.

but I laughed so hard, How you got 3 likes about what you said, like seriously. Maybe my understanding of what you said is different than those who pressed the Like button. It's really concern me :D (no offend).

Just look what you said mate. I'll try to interpret it in my words.

 

In order to clear 7/7 fl hc, You need to form a 10/10 group to be with above average, skilled to GOD level players.

A groups with 2-5 above average and rest average performence players is no longer enough.

 

This is my answer: The game, The PVE, does not designed for the Hardcores players only. The expactation that everyone will become a Hardcore player in order to clear 7/7 fl hc is RIDICULOUS. Atm Atlantiss bent over those Hardcore players sake by setting high-bar that most of people cannot reach.

 

Normal distribution should be like: 10-15% above average pve players, 50-65% average-skilled pve players, 25-35% below-average skilled pve players.

Atm all the population of 'average-skilled' layer is vanished from server.

 

Edit:

Anyway the 'wrangling' and our opinions are different, I will stop now to comment. The topic go pointless. atleast we agreed that Shadow Priest (should) be ok for Rag hc.

Something to think about: I always love to compare previous contents to correct content, what we had to what we have now.

Just think about the beginning of FL nm.  Since when it released and how it looked six months after.

compared to the begining of FL hc, Since when it released and how it looked six months later.

At the beginning of FL nm ppl had to min-max and progress like people do now with FL hc, yet the gaps are HUGE also the standard deviation.

Think about it. If you won't find any, tell me I'll PM you. no longer on Public.

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I get the feeling you argue for the sake of arguing, but here in the real world (of warcraft), it's not raining 7/7 fl hc guilds. Those two statements are a and/or condition. Basic logic. 

2 hours ago, Trollgod said:

Atm all the population of 'average-skilled' layer is vanished from server

according to what/whom?

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According to some internet surveys, 98% of the internet surveys are taken out of the arse. 

Just throwing a random reminder to this already derailed topic.

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I don't want to get into all this drama topic. Just wanna say that Shadow Priest can deliver you into the average of DPS label - you must get to it, but i dont feel like its unable to do Ragnaros hc with spriest in roster. Don't know if thats good or not, but you can easily pull over 37-38k on baleroc heroic on spriest, which is NOT BAD (also not the best :D), and i understand that firemages pulling over 47k are way more better, shadowpriests are not that much outstanding from other classes like DKs or even hunters. That's from my little perspective, as not the most experienced and overwhelming Shadow Priests player. Thanks for attention ;-)

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On 1.3.2017 at 1:30 PM, boniboniboni said:

I get the feeling you argue for the sake of arguing

according to what/whom?

 

According to the power of comparison, if we put FLnm vs FLhc on Timeline and compare what happened in six months of each existance.

 

FLnm ---1----2----3----4----5----6----->

FL hc ---1----2----3----4----5----6----->

 

We can clearly see when FLnm released and six months later we had over 15 guilds with 7/7 bosses completed. (if not more)

And when FLhc released and six months later we still have 2 guilds only with 7/7 bosses completed.

Yes we have alot guilds at 6/7 hc but the minority is not indicative of the majority that are not close to 6/7 fl hc.

 

We all know if the custome buff will be removed more guilds will do 7/7 fl hc.

and Shadow priest will not be "inferior" class anymore.

I know people lost their brain and eyes those days. the DENIAL is strong nothing can surprising me.

 

*I quote you but this message is not refering to only to you.

** TBH I didn't wanted to respond to your message, I kept myself in silience for while. Because it look like I argue for sake of arguing.:) 

Everything is been explained over 3 pages.

I hope in this message I don't open this again to discussion...

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Just now, boniboniboni said:

I'm bored of this topic already, can we go to the one with the shannox police?

I think we bored of shannox police topic aswell^ let's just wait for another Topic to pop up with full of silliness. :D:D

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Ok, to revive this topic a bit (and hopefully stay on topic), here's an update.

DS content was up, and few major bugs that Spriests have are: Spine trinket not proccing on DOTs, and our pet/apparations not always finding way to hit the boss. Even without these bugs, Spriest's DPS would be in "medium" range, thus making them absolute garbage on many of the encounters.

That being said, Zonoz, Hagara and Warmaster HC are places where we shine! I am talking about Multidotting and being able to absorb Hour of Twilight or Ice Shards with dispersion. We still won't top DPS charts but we can be damn close. Now if raid leader don't mind swapping classes mid raid, go for it. Or you can get 3-4 DPS classes that do 50k+ and invite Spriests as a UTILITY class for whole raid.

 

Bottom line: Spriests are not TOP dps classes, so raid leaders who only care about dps won't give them a chance. Leaders who prefer having 1-2 utility classes in raid, and have Ultraxx enrage timer covered, will give them a chance.

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